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Requested move 5 August 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Occupied Palestinian territories. We're in a bit of a WP:NOGOODOPTIONS situation here. There is strong - unanimous in fact - consensus that a move is advisable, but no clear consensus on exactly where to move. The main points of debate are (a) whether to capitalise the whole thing as a proper name, and (b) whether to use singular or plural for territory. Everyone agrees that the word Occupied should be prepended, however, so in closing this I'm taking the path of least change and simply adding that word on to the front of the existing title. As there isn't a definite consensus for the specific title, editors are welcome to start a fresh RM in the future to explore a different variant if anyone feels strongly about that.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian territories → Occupied Palestinian Territory – This terminology has become standard across all official sources, the United Nations, itself and in its resolutions, and at the International Court of Justice (ICJ), in 2004 and reaffirmed in 2024, the EU and in many secondary sources. The ICJ concluded that the West Bank and Gaza are a single territorial unit: However, the Court recalls that, from a legal standpoint, the Occupied Palestinian Territory constitutes a single territorial unit, the unity, contiguity and integrity of which is to be preserved and respected. Thus, all references in this Opinion to the Occupied Palestinian Territory are references to this single territorial unit. Although still used in sources, and should remain as an aka, the existing title is currently an anachronism. Note that the OPT is also equivalent geographically to the area claimed by the State of Palestine. Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Frost 16:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 15:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 08:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Hi @FourPi, like the ICJ, the ICRC uses "Occupied Palestinian Territory". The UN and ISO used that name until 2012, when Palestine was admitted to the UN as a non-member observer state. Misha Wolf (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've now discovered that the UN and some or all of its agencies still use the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory" when referring to the relevant portion of the Earth's surface, even though they switched in 2012 to "State of Palestine" when referring to the political entity. See, for example, here and here. Misha Wolf (talk) 23:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And here. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Misha Wolf conclusion first, I agree with you: singular Territory with a capital T.
    • I found ECFR uses that too, and I would expect them to skew more towards Israel / USA than the others? So it seems to be used very widely.
    • Australia uses plural (but also say they support a "two state solution" while only recognizing one state).
    • The WHO were using lowercase in 2020, but lowercase seems less common.
    • I checked MSF etc. because they are very dedicated to neutrality, but MSF simply call it Palestine https://www.msf.org/palestine
    One reservation I had was that capital T looks like a formal name for a place. The Northern Territory or British Indian Ocean Territory, both look like they legitimately belong to a more powerful nation, whereas "occupied Palestinian territory" looked (to me) like what is happening to part (or all) of the land that rightly belongs to a country called Palestine. But after reading the British Indian Ocean Territory page, the situation doesn't seem that different. I already knew the history around Chagos, I just underestimated the level legal recognition for it. FourPi (talk) 07:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Seeking more participation Frost 16:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Palestine has been notified of this discussion. Frost 16:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Misha Wolf: I support both, but Occupied Palestinian Territories is better in my opinion. Waqar💬 17:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 08:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
@Misha Wolf, I picked plural because the plural is used by the UK and Australian governments. But Australia's page includes, "Australia does not recognise a Palestinian state. We are committed to a two-state solution…" and I have nothing polite to say about that contradiction, so they might not be good to copy? FourPi (talk) 12:18, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The WHO and ICRC both say "occupied Palestinian territory", singular "territory" but only Palestine has a capital "P".
  • Singular lowercase "occupied Palestinian territory" is the established term used by the WHO, e.g. in January 2020
  • The International Committee of the Red Cross "What does the law say about the responsibilities of the Occupying Power in the occupied Palestinian territory?" on 26-07-2024 (and in the footnotes of that) "The official name of the Delegation is "ICRC's Delegation in Israel and the Occupied Territories". The "occupied territories" comprise the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the Shebaa Farms. The ICRC sometimes uses the term "occupied Palestinian territory" to refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and/or Gaza specifically. This use is based on the standardization of the term, adopted by the United Nations after the recognition of the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people."
  • The proper noun in what @Selfstudier links is the name of the legal opinion, "Opinion to the Occupied Palestinian Territory" but the way that legal document uses capitals has me very confused, "…as an occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory…" and "…in the Occupied Palestinian Territory are contrary to international law, the Court indicates…" and "By virtue of its status as an occupying Power, a State assumes a set of powers and duties…" e.g. why "O" in "Occupied Territory" but "o" in "occupying Power"? whereas the ICRC say "Occupying Power" and "occupied Palestinian territory"?
Currently, singular lowercase "territory" like the WHO and ICRC use seems best to me? but if the ICJ ruling somehow added a capital T that is now used elsewhere, then I do not object to us using that here. FourPi (talk) 03:46, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @FourPi, see the ICRC's "Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory: The law of occupation must be respected" of 2024-07-19.
The UN has consistently used the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory" since October 1999 to describe the territory, as opposed to the legal entity. That's coming up to 25 years. I consider the position of the UN, with its 193 member states, to be authoritative. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Resolution A/RES/77/247 adopted by the UN General Assembly on 30 December 2022, which requested that the ICJ renders an advisory opinion regarding the occupation, repeatedly uses the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory".
Note also the title of the ICJ's advisory opinion of July 2004, "Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory". Misha Wolf (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC) (Amended to remove an excess word 12:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC))[reply]
The important bit is adding the word "occupied". We should also be pointing out that it applies to the Gaza Strip – including from 2007 to September 2023 – on any pages where that is relevant, possibly the page Gaza Strip should move as well? FourPi (talk) 03:46, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kowal2701 (talk) 18:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Below, I've pasted in some of my earlier contributions which are now included in collapsed regions of this Talk page.Misha Wolf (talk) 12:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC) (Tidied up the indentation of my text below 16:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC))[reply]

... like the ICJ, the ICRC uses "Occupied Palestinian Territory". The UN and ISO used that name until 2012, when Palestine was admitted to the UN as a non-member observer state. Misha Wolf (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've now discovered that the UN and some or all of its agencies still use the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory" when referring to the relevant portion of the Earth's surface, even though they switched in 2012 to "State of Palestine" when referring to the political entity. See, for example, here and here. Misha Wolf (talk) 23:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And here. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
... see the ICRC's "Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory: The law of occupation must be respected" of 2024-07-19.
The UN has consistently used the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory" since October 1999 to describe the territory, as opposed to the legal entity. That's coming up to 25 years. I consider the position of the UN, with its 193 member states, to be authoritative. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Resolution A/RES/77/247 adopted by the UN General Assembly on 30 December 2022, which requested that the ICJ renders an advisory opinion regarding the occupation, repeatedly uses the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory".
Note also the title of the ICJ's advisory opinion of July 2004, "Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory". Misha Wolf (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC) (Amended to remove an excess word 12:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC))[reply]

In response to the relisting comment about singular/plural and capitalization, I give (20 August 2024) Le Monde "Not only does the ICJ declare the Israeli occupation "unlawful," but it also considers "the Occupied Palestinian Territory constitutes a single territorial unit," regardless of the different statuses that Israel has imposed on it since 1967. The reversal of perspective implied by the use of the singular, rather than the usual plural, by the highest body of international law is particularly significant for Gaza." and (2024) Oxfam America and an interesting discussion in 2023 of the Australian parliament "On 8 August 2023, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Penny Wong, noted in Parliament that 'Australia is proposing to adopt or will be adopting or returning to the term "Occupied Palestinian Territories"'." (also includes a brief review of what "peer nations" are doing wrt terminology, their example for the EU is correct except that the EU does usually capitalize). Maybe editors have other examples we could look at? Selfstudier (talk) 22:03, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As you mention, and as noted in para 2 of the article's lead, the EU normally uses the term "Occupied Palestinian Territory".[1] Misha Wolf (talk) 22:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "European Union, Trade in goods with Occupied Palestinian Territory" (PDF). European Commission / Directorate-General for Trade. 4 November 2016. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2019-05-28. Retrieved 29 November 2016.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 August 2024

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Please update "135 UN Member Nations have recognized the State of Palestine." to "145 UN Member Nations have recognized the State of Palestine." as the number has since increased. AG202 (talk) 04:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 07:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MadGuy7023: I am matching the number found at State of Palestine and International recognition of the State of Palestine, which is the page that the aforementioned source links to, meaning that we have a clear and blatant discrepancy that needs to be updated. However, if it's necessary to give a source with the explicit number of "145", here's one: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/06/armenia-recognizes-palestinian-state-israel-furious-summons-ambassador. AG202 (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done ({{Numrec|Pal}} and it should autoupdate.) Selfstudier (talk) 15:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ngrams

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Shows a clear preference for the singular over the plural. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:29, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure the cap version is most common but it can wait for a while. Selfstudier (talk) 16:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update

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First paragraph references the number of recognising states. But the hyperlink takes you to 147 states recognised. Original "recognized by 146 out of 193 UN member states." 2407:E400:9003:4800:9013:9087:862B:B9F8 (talk) 09:55, 23 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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